EMDR Phases, Processing, and What the Heck Is an EMDR Hangover?

About this episode

What actually happens when you start EMDR?

In this episode of Bilateral Banter, we're breaking down all 8 phases of EMDR and talking about what you can actually expect when you begin therapy. We talk about why EMDR isn't just jumping straight into your worst memories, why the therapeutic relationship and feeling safe matter so much, and what happens before you ever get to processing.

We also get into getting yourself ready for processing, stabilization, the importance of preparation, and what it can feel like afterward (EMDR hangover??).

As always, we're keeping it real, using lots of analogies, and making a complicated therapy process a little easier to understand. Whether you're thinking about trying EMDR, already doing EMDR, or just curious about what happens behind the scenes, this episode is for you.

Transcript

Auto-generated from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability — it may contain transcription errors.

Welcome to Bilateral Banter, a Loma Therapy podcast where we explore the psychology of everyday life and make EMDR easier to understand — with your hosts Dr. Montana Holmes, licensed psychologist and EMDR-trained therapist, and Auriel Campbell, licensed professional counselor, supervisor, and EMDR trainer and consultant. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for mental health care. Listening does not create a therapeutic relationship. If you're in crisis, call or text 988 or contact your local emergency services. Let's get into today's conversation.

Hey, Auriel.

Hey, Montana. So good to see you.

I know. Good to see you, too. How's it been?

Good. Should you tell them about your big move?

Oh my gosh. Yes. So, I'm in Texas again — but this time for all the time, I guess. There's no move-back date. Yeah, we moved from San Francisco, where we had been for the past three years. I think I told you I did my internship out there, and then stayed. And then we were just kind of reflecting and thinking, "Wow, it seems like all of our therapists are in Texas. All of the clients that we're hoping to reach are in Texas. Why aren't we in Texas?"

Yes.

So we decided to make the move, and we found a really cute little place in Austin, and we're probably going to be moving in here in the next couple of days.

It's so exciting. Austin is great. But I also love that y'all are both from Texas, but y'all are totally pulling the typical Californian right now — going from California to Austin.

I know.

Everybody is doing that.

I know. I forgot who I was talking to, and they were like, "Oh, you know, y'all are transplants." And I was like, "No, we're not. We're from here. We're Texans." And they were like, "Oh, you're Texans, but you went to California and then you're moving back — or you're moving to Austin." And we were like, "Yes, it does follow the same storyline, but we are native Texans." And they were like, "Oh, okay."

I can imagine their brains are going, "Why did you leave?"

Every Texan, they're like, "Oh, you went and found out what California was about," and then came back, right? And we're like —

Yes.

Honestly, yeah. Although — no hate on California.

No, for sure. There's a joke in Louisiana. So, for all y'all to know this: we've now got both Southern girls back. We got our Texan and our Louisianian. Right.

Absolutely.

So there's always the joke that Cajuns, if they ever move away, always move back, because they tasted the bayou water. And so I did the same thing. I went away for college in Ohio, then did grad school in New Orleans — which is in Louisiana — but I always thought I would move away again. I looked at Asheville, and I looked at Austin. And guess where I am? In my little old hometown. Tasted that bayou water. Couldn't get enough.

Can't get enough of it.

Yes.

You know, Auriel, I did not know you spent time in Ohio.

Yeah, that's where I was at Oberlin Conservatory for opera performance.

Goodness. Wow. Gosh, that is such a culture shock — to go from the Southern states to up there.

It is. Oberlin is a world-renowned music conservatory, similar to Juilliard, and it's funny — it's this brilliant liberal arts college in the middle of corn fields.

Yeah. Right.

And it was an incredible experience. So yeah, before mental health, the biggest thing was I was geared towards being a classical musician. First it was flute, and then it was opera.

Wow.

Yep.

Auriel, when I got trained in EMDR, my trainer talked about playing the violin, playing the fiddle — that being bilateral stimulation — and how therapists, after a long day of work, if they are musical, pick that up. And she was kind of explaining it as a coping skill after a long session, just a way to regulate your nervous system. With the flute, do you still get that kind of bilateral stimulation feel, or not so much?

Probably not as much. I'm glad we're actually doing this visual, because look at this — look at the difference here, as opposed to just this.

Yeah.

You know, you sway when playing the flute. So you could do some bilateral there, if you're naturally musically inclined to move like that. But —

Yeah, and I mean, even — I'm thinking outside of EMDR, but just engaging your vagus nerve, all those different things. Certain types of music are going to help bring you into ventral vagal. But, you know, that actually makes tremendous sense with violin —

Back and forth.

Or if you play piano.

Yeah. That's actually kind of cool to think about.

It is cool. I was gonna say, our EMDR play therapists, when they're engaging the kiddos in play therapy with bilateral, they will give them pool noodles, or they'll do a sword fight, and they're doing this, you know. Super interesting, right? Or she gives them pool noodles and they're popping the bubbles as she's giving them negative cognitions and then moving into positive cognitions, and they're working out the trauma. And so as I was watching myself do this with the violin, it made me think of that. It made me think, that's what they're doing in play therapy. So isn't that cool?

That is really cool. It reminds me — I went to the EMDRIA conference a couple weeks ago, and in the exhibition hall, I was surprised at how many BLS folks were there who own companies, who have designed either software or actual tactile sensors — or, for kids, it was games, and it was all really cute. There was this one — it was a magic wand. And at the end there was a light, and the demonstration was the EMDR therapist would be kind of waving that magic wand in front of a little girl's face, and she would be following it back and forth. But it's wild how many different ways you can administer the BLS. It doesn't just have to be that kind of three or four that — at least that I kind of deliver in session, from when I first started introducing BLS.

Yes.

Yeah. It's so crazy you're saying this. I'm pumped that we're talking about this. I trained the students at Loyola — the counseling students — last weekend, and one of them… I'm showing them the different forms of BLS. So you can do eye movements, you can do auditory, you can do tactile. Well, loved this person. She had her — is it the Nintendo Switch?

Switch. Yeah.

And she had — they're like this big, and she's holding them. Nintendo did this.

No way.

Yes. You can pay Nintendo $50 a year, and it goes — and you can do it on your phone.

Wait, wait, wait. They set it up to — they use the language bilateral stimulation?

Yes. Yes.

Oh my gosh.

Which is so funny, because, for y'all to know this, my husband was an engineer for ten years. And when we were talking with Montana and her husband Grant, Trent was like, "You know, you could just do Nintendo. All it is is —" And so I was like, oh my gosh, I need to tell Trent this. I think I even forgot to tell him.

There's this idea.

So yeah. So what it is is, if you have a client who's virtual and they have a Nintendo Switch, you or them can pay $50 a year. You can hook your phone to their Nintendo and change the speed.

That is wild.

So even Nintendo's gotten into this.

I know. Look at them. They are so with it. It's kind of crazy. It's really crazy.

I love this, though, because I'm actually meeting with a client — I've been meeting with her for a couple of weeks now, and we're just getting into choosing BLS and what kind of format works best for her. And anyway, the visual doesn't really feel right, and neither does the tapping, but she has a Nintendo Switch. So I know what we're going to try next, because some of the tappers are a bit pricey, and so I haven't recommended them, but she already has a Switch. So that's so cool — that even for therapists out there who might be stuck on which sort of BLS to use, if someone has a Switch, it could be something to experiment with.

Yes.

Very neat.

So for any of y'all that are just chiming in, y'all thinking, "What is BLS?" — we're not BLSing y'all. I promise. I think it's so funny. BLS — I remember a client said, "Are you going to BLS me?"

Which makes me think of, "Are you gonna BS me?"

It's a verb.

Yes. BLS stands for bilateral stimulation — or some people will use DAS, dual attention stimulus. It's an aspect of EMDR. Whenever you're doing EMDR, how it helps you engage your brain and heal and digest all that stuff that's been stuck is through the bilateral stimulation. And the majority of Shapiro's research — I think all of it, actually — is just on eye movements. And so the eye movements is where their eyes are just doing this. But I will tell you, I find the majority of clients prefer tactile.

Yeah.

It's tactile. And they do say that even though you may have a preference, it may not be the best mechanic, right — or mechanism. But if a client prefers tactile and they're in dual awareness — so they're able to have one foot in the present, one foot in the past — then it's fine. The only reason you would change it up is if they have a hard time with it. But isn't that interesting? Thinking about what people prefer, but what a lot of the research is —

Based off of.

Based off of. Yeah.

It makes me wonder, Auriel — when EMDR was kind of just coming to the field, it was only visual BLS. And some of the things that I can think of clients naming is, "Oh, it's distracting. I feel like I'm having to follow the dot perfectly, or your fingers perfectly, or the background behind your hand is catching my attention." Do you know what they would do if the visual didn't work?

You know, I don't, and this makes me curious to research more.

Me too.

I will say, even when you do tactile, there's going to be times that you get a little distracted, and the biggest thing is, sometimes the clinician will just say, go with that. Sometimes the distraction may be a part of how your body is trying to titrate.

Right.

Right. Or if you see yourself getting distracted often, they'll just say, go back to the last thing you were noticing and just go with that. But it does make me wonder. I'll say, as somebody who is also trained in brainspotting — something that deterred me from brainspotting was how hard it is on the ocular nerves. Our ocular nerve is just this big. And with a brainspot, you're focusing on a spot. And so I know for people that do EMDR, there is a benefit that there's different ways of doing BLS, because if somebody does have seizures or eye problems, you can use these other forms or mechanisms. But I even find when I'm doing tappers, if I'm watching my clients, you'll see their eyes moving a little bit. It's amazing. It intuitively sometimes just pulls the eyes to want to do that. Yeah — but it's a little bit easier on the ocular nerve.

That's really neat. I love the — and we probably won't go into it today — but the biology behind the rapid eye movement. I attended one of these talks at EMDRIA, and they were saying — I might be misquoting this presenter so bad right now, but we'll go with it — she was saying that, yes, in our biology, so the REM sleep — and BLS is the only thing that we have currently that will simulate something that happens naturally in our biology. And she was linking it to the adaptive information processing, which we will get into later, and how that is something that our body naturally does: the brain's tendency to just heal itself and then consolidate memories through the rapid eye movement stage of sleep, and how EMDR is doing both of those things. It's capitalizing on both of those natural processes in the brain. And I thought that was so cool, because I never said it that way in my head — that when we do the visual BLS, we are doing something that our body already does to consolidate information. When she put it that way, I thought, that's really cool.

But think about what she just said. When you're in rapid eye movement — so we've got three types of sleep. We've got light sleep, REM when we're dreaming, and then deep sleep. Deep sleep is actually the only time our brain's completely offline. But in REM, when we're working through everything, our eyes are doing this, but they're not open. Our eyes are doing this, and you'll see often — you know, you can see my eyelids — people are doing this in their sleep.

Yeah.

If somebody's doing tactile or auditory, because it's engaging something that our body naturally does, wouldn't it make sense that it's going to just flutter a little bit?

Yep. Trigger that natural movement.

Yep.

Very neat. Yeah. I was just paying attention to that, because I haven't noticed.

Yeah. Very cool.

I feel like it might be harder when you're virtual.

It is. Yeah, definitely. I can definitely be up there in the screen trying to look at that —

And they open their eyes like —

I was trying to see if your eyes were fluttering.

Don't worry about it. Well, on this note, because we're getting into some of the meat of it — I know we said it might be funny to invite our listeners into what had happened to us last session.

Yes. What had happened — what had happened was —

Let me explain. So, I love — we were so well-intentioned. We really were. But we noticed — when I was looking at the recording and going to edit it and everything, I noticed that it was so dense. I mean, there was wonderful, amazing information in there, but my presence on the screen, and then also my presence just re-watching it — I was like, "Oh, this is a lot." And I'm not bored, because it's interesting, but also, wow, this is a lot of information.

Yeah. And intense.

Really intense.

Yep.

So what I think we ultimately decided, Auriel, is that we're going to try to keep this a little bit lighter, a little bit more captivating — bring a little bit more of ourselves to this instead of a lecture. And if people ever did want to know a lot of the research or the nitty-gritty behind some of the concepts that we discuss in here, they are more than welcome to reach out to us, and we can send over any supporting material that we have for those who are interested in reading more, or just learning more about the ins and outs of some of these concepts.

Yes, absolutely. I think of — you know, everybody's different. My husband and I just went to the beach, and we put on an audiobook, and the audiobook we picked — the author is very charismatic. He's fun, and his books are that way too. It's this beautiful combination of, you're getting some information, but you're also laughing. So it's that perfect thing that you want to listen to on a drive. And I think of that as what podcasts often are. And that last podcast reminded me of almost how you were describing it — like a basic training, actually training clinicians: how do you sit with people? How do you prepare it? And that's a lot. Think of — we're designing this for the everyday person going, what the heck's EMDR? Y'all don't need this intensity, you know. But if you're hungering for it, we are happy to say, hey, check this out.

Yeah. And I also don't think it means that we're not going to be pulling the curtain back a little bit about how things are happening and why EMDR therapists are doing what they're doing. But you and I are totally capable of doing it in a way that just feels light and fun and interesting. So it was a good reminder to not keep on doing what's not working, and to just change it up and try something different.

Yeah. Yep.

So, yeah. Today: eight phases.

Eight phases.

Second attempt at it.

Yes. And just so y'all know how dense it got — it was like an hour just talking about phase one and phase two.

That should have been our first sign.

We were like, "Oh, okay." You know, so maybe we should lighten it up a little bit.

Yeah. Pull it back a little bit.

Yeah. Well, cool.

Well —

There you are.

I'll go ahead and dive in. That work?

Yeah. Cool. Please do.

So, eight phases of EMDR can sound super daunting, but it's not. It's really just something to guide the therapy, and it has a lot of great checks and balances in it, which I think is really helpful for people if they fear they're going to do EMDR wrong — which, you can't do EMDR wrong, because it's accessing something that's already within our body, right?

You can't —

You can't blink wrong, you know. It's the same thing here. But those eight phases fall in line with three big components of trauma treatment: stabilization, trauma processing, and then integration. So, kind of thinking — I think we used the analogy last time — if I went to Montana as my personal trainer, which, man, wouldn't that be hilarious? First off, that we were training each other in that way at all. You know, and I'm like, Montana, I want to run a marathon. You'd say, okay, great. How much do you work out? I'd be like, none — which actually is not true anymore. My husband has been training me in the last month to build some muscle. But if you started just having me run, I'd injure myself completely. You'd say, sister girl, you got the muscle mass of nil. And so we need to build some muscle mass. We need to stabilize those protective joints, all these different things, so that you can even walk three miles and then run a mile, right? So that stabilization in trauma treatment is doing the same thing. Usually when someone comes in with trauma, there's some things currently in their life needing some anchoring, needing some stabilization. And that's phases one and two of EMDR.

Auriel, I love — and maybe you can share with the listeners — I love your analogy when you compare someone who's a marathon runner to someone who's been bedridden.

Yes. Yes.

And when they both show up to EMDR therapy, how different it will look for them. Maybe you can share a little bit about that.

Yeah. So, you know, sometimes people ask — well, first off, people often mistake EMDR as just being where we start into phase three, which is the trauma processing. And we have to remind the clients that, hey, no, no, no, no, no. Phases one and two — the preparation and the history taking — is still EMDR. If Montana got me and my husband, and Montana's gonna be our trainer, and we both have the same goal of running a marathon: my husband has all the muscle mass in all the land. I have no muscle mass. And that's literally not it — it's just true.

That's just true.

So we would both be starting in the same place, with Montana assessing both of us, hearing our goals, hearing our history. Okay, Trent has perfect health. He has no autoimmune diseases. He's got all this muscle mass. Auriel — okay, you've got multiple autoimmune diseases. You live a sedentary life. You have no muscle mass. All of that history taking and assessment is still going to be starting in the same place, but Trent's gonna get to that goal of running a marathon quicker than me.

It doesn't mean that one's right or wrong. It just depends.

But we both have to go through phases one and two, because Trent, even though he has a lot of muscle mass, does not run. So there would be things that you would have to do to help him build those running muscles, right? Or that endurance. For me, who doesn't work out at all, we might be in that stabilization a little bit longer.

Interesting. Sometimes I will have a client who has a friend, or knows somebody, who has done EMDR before, and they'll be like, "Oh, they felt so good. They went to a couple sessions and everything kind of was consolidated for them, and they noticed the positive change so quickly." And I'll be sitting with them thinking, just based on the history taking that we've done in this session, it's probably not going to be that for you. But it's just two different stories, two different lived experiences. Everyone's story is different, so the EMDR story is going to be a little different.

Right. And I want to say this as a disclaimer of encouragement. We're using the example of a marathon, right? I will tell you, even at my healthiest and strongest, it would be unwise for me to run a marathon.

Oh, yeah.

You get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

But a good trainer might say it would be important for you to increase muscle mass and endurance. And so for people that have those really intense, complex stories, the goal isn't to keep you in phase one and phase two forever. And there's so many different things that an EMDR therapist is trained in to kind of get you to phase into that processing sooner than later — and can even adapt it to get you into processing sooner. So, for example, if Montana is looking at me and she's like, "Girly, I know you want to run a marathon, but what does a marathon mean for you?" And so I think about that with trauma clients. They're like, "I want to get this trauma processed." What does that mean for you? And so maybe you would ask me that question and I'd say, "Well, I'd have more energy. I would feel strong. And I'd have more endurance." You might be able to say, "Guess what, sister girl? We can still do that" — and I'd not actually ever run a marathon. This just may look like increasing muscle mass and doing interval training, and that actually fits better for your body type and your limitations and your story.

Yeah. That can be the same thing with EMDR, where when the client says, "I want to be able to experience relief and healing" — okay, what does that look like? You can still experience that right now in phases one and two, and adaptive ways of processing.

And I think that can be encouraging for clients to hear as well.

Yeah, I think so too. But also for the clients who — I'm thinking of one story in particular, and maybe this will lead nicely into the next part of this, the trauma processing part — because they knew that they had a history full of trauma, and they knew they didn't want to go deep into the pits of that trauma. They came in saying, "I know I want to do EMDR, but I know I don't want to go there." Is that kind of where we can say the client can keep it in the box? That's maybe the marathon that they don't ever have to run. But all of these other smaller, more present-day triggers — even maybe a couple-years-ago triggers — those are things that we can target, and are things that are relevant for this person's EMDR journey in that moment. And maybe this is not the marathon, but the — I don't even know enough runner lengths — the five-mile sprint.

Right? Me neither.

Okay.

The hundred-yard dash — maybe that's what it is.

Yeah. No, this is such a great question, and I want to use it, because there's this case study I teach my EMDR students that I think could be a perfect example. The case is: there's this precious soul who's an 18-wheeler driver, gets in this horrible accident, and seeks out therapy because she is now experiencing PTSD and anxiety about driving — not only the 18-wheeler, but her own car, or even being a passenger in a car.

Yeah.

So if you think about this, this person is not able to work. She's concerned about finances and wants to get back to work. But also, she cannot drive or ride in a car, which is limiting as a mom and a wife and just a human being. Right.

Oh my gosh. Right.

But the important part of phase one and phase two, of getting to know this history, is this. Let's say we find out that this person was sexually assaulted by her uncle and her dad as a child. So when we think about — just to kind of bring connections here — being pinned in that 18-wheeler can bring up the same body memories as being pinned down, being sexually abused.

Yeah.

So here's the dilemma, and this is why I love teaching it to my clinicians. We can't really splice things. Everything's going to always be connected. We have these things called associated memory channels. And memories can be images, beliefs, sensations, emotions. So the moment you connect one, guess where it's going to go? All the way to other ones, right?

Root.

Which is what Shapiro calls the touchstone — the youngest. So this goes back to this dilemma. This client didn't come in with the goal of wanting to work on her sexual abuse.

Right.

Right. And maybe this is exactly like your client saying, "I can't even go there."

No —

"I'm not ready, but I have a presenting concern of, I need to work, and I'd like to be able to go on date nights, and I'd like to go to my kids' soccer games, or grocery shopping."

Right. Yeah.

So this is where EMDR does have different things that can help the client reach that goal. For any of y'all wondering, well, what is it called? It's called EMD, which is more symptom treatment, or EMD little-r, which is kind of like helping the client work through the memory channel some, but then coming back if it starts to bleed back too much into the past. There's positive templates. There's all these different things — even the recent event protocol — that can help the client feel like they can experience some relief and some processing in a very controlled manner. But because EMDR, like what we were talking about earlier on, is accessing something that's intrinsic in us — the adaptive information processing model, which is intrinsic in us — it's going to want to resolve all the way.

Yeah.

So what I would do, thinking of your client, is I'd say, "Hey, totally get it. Can't touch the box yet. We can honor that. We can find ways to experience some relief and healing using these titrated forms of EMDR therapy. But once that's done, there may be value in reassessing: hey, do you still not want to touch the box? Are you open to touching the box?" Like that client — we need to get her back to work and driving, but there may still be a hinge, or a tinge, of something feeling unresolved until it touches the box. Does that make sense?

Completely. Yes, it does. And I'm thinking, along the way, as you experience even these different protocols, you're still gaining experience. You're teaching your nervous system that it can tolerate processing. So even as you go through it, you are learning more about yourself, your ability to cope, your ability to tolerate difficult things. So the person that you are when you walk in the door before processing, and the person you are after processing, could be two different people. And so that question is even more relevant at the end: do you feel — or is it a possibility for us to even choose one thing out of that box? Maybe the tiniest, smallest thing in that box. And the answer might be yes, because they're a different person when you ask them that question. So it is hopeful. It's very optimistic.

It is. And you know, too, talking about how our body wants to heal — it wants to get down to that resolve — the body also has natural protective factors. So something I love to tell you: remember how we talked about that first stage of trauma treatment being stabilization? The body literally will not go to the past, or process, if it does not feel safe in the present. This is actually why — I don't know if any of y'all are experiencing this; I've personally experienced this — there's some levels of healing I was not able to get to until I married my husband, who was a very anchoring, safe person.

Yeah.

And when my body and my nervous system had that level of safety, guess what happened? I started having flashbacks. I had some dissociated memories coming up. I started having some things that I'm like, "What in the hecking world?" But it's because there was a level of additional safety that said we can go there now.

Isn't the body and the mind wild?

I know. It's precious. It's beautiful. There are just these special protective mechanisms in there.

And so sometimes even you saying, "Hey, I can't go to the box" — even I've been the person who says, "I want to go to the box." And guess what? My mind said, "I can't go there."

Yeah.

And so there are some levels where we can trust our nervous system and our body to give us the cues and the clues of: can we go there yet, or is it not the right time?

That's so true. That's so true. I have become increasingly more obsessed with our nervous system. I don't know if this is just characteristic of someone getting into EMDR — they inevitably become obsessed with the nervous system — but this is me right now. And I'm reading — oh, I'm gonna forget her name. Deb Dana.

Oh, yeah. Deb Dana.

Deb Dana. Okay. She has this book called Anchored. Have you —

Great book.

I'm only on the second chapter, but I'm just obsessed with it, and how it feels like a lot of phase one and two is so dedicated towards our nervous system and just helping people identify and give language to it. And I know it's all polyvagal theory, but I feel like there's so much overlap with EMDR.

It is. So, just for the sake of us not pulling what we did last time, I'm gonna do a brief overview of phases one and two so we can get to the meat and potatoes. So phases one and two of EMDR are called history taking and preparation, and it fits within the trauma modality of stabilizing the client. And it's just a really beautiful overview of what an EMDR therapist is going to be doing with you. This is where you are building rapport. They are gathering your history and even helping you make sense of your story. We all make sense in our context. You're learning what needs immediate stabilization, and even building your window of tolerance. So oftentimes with trauma, our window of tolerance is very small, meaning we can get easily over-activated, or flop into under-activation pretty quickly.

So, building coping skills. It may be getting out of immediate danger if you're in a dangerous relationship. It could be getting on medication. Just all these different things to help support you, and even learn your body's cues of saying, "Hey, I've had enough." Right? It's figuring out what memories you do want to target — what are the triggering things that you want to target with EMDR later on. It's assessing for any additional potential things, such as dissociation, educating about EMDR, and doing some lighter forms of EMDR in resourcing — called safe calm place and container — which is helping you be able to just ease in without processing, but also building your body's ability to be in dual awareness. So, kind of going back to that, you've got two clients that might be in different places. This could be as fast as six sessions.

Yeah.

For someone else, this may be a few months.

Yeah.

But the goal isn't to stay here forever. And if the client doesn't want to go to processing, then we're going to honor that. But if the client longs for processing, a good EMDR therapist has the mindset of: the reason you are where you are today is you've got some trauma that's stuck. So we don't want to keep you just massaging this over and over again in phase one and phase two. We want to get you through that.

Yeah.

And so that's where some of the titrated versions of EMDR can be helpful in getting them in sooner.

Right. To help you get there. Auriel, for our listeners, when they hear you say dual awareness, can you explain a little bit about what that means?

One foot in the present, one foot in the past. So oftentimes, this is where the bilateral stimulation is phenomenal. When there's trauma, our brain either avoids it or it gets flooded with it. The avoidance is: I've got two feet in the present. I don't remember anything, or if I do remember it, I don't feel anything.

It's kind of like, do I want tacos or burgers for dinner, type of thing.

Two feet in the past is: it feels like it's happening again. I'm reliving it. It's too much. Right? So dual awareness is: I know I'm safe in the here and now, but as I think about the trauma, I can still feel some of the sensations and emotions and trauma, which means I've latched on to the memory, and now I can safely kind of teeter-totter between the two. And that is what happens when we are doing bilateral stimulation — it creates a thing called an orienting response. So, I think we talked about this our first time. I was like, "Mont, what's something you're really into?" And you were like, "Uh, ice cream." It helps the brain feel safe to explore that while also being anchored in the present.

So, it reminds me of the movie theater. It's like sitting at the screen — you're watching it go by. I call it the movie theater because it just feels more visual, but that's how I picture it. You're grounded. You're seated. You're at the movie theater. You know where you are. You know what's happening, but you're also watching things happen on the screen that may be from the past — that also might be triggering, or have been triggering in the past — but you're able to still stay very present and watch it happen. Is that also a good way to describe what happens during that dual awareness?

Yes. It's actually something we often tell clients: when you're doing EMDR, the actual processing, it's almost like you're looking out the window and you're watching the trees go by. You don't want to anchor onto the tree. But I love the idea of a movie theater, because the screen's so big, right? It could feel real, and you want to be into the movie. You want to experience emotion and sensation, but you also want to have a place where you know: I'm not in the movie.

Right?

I am in the movie theater.

Yeah. I've got my popcorn and my drink and everything here.

That's it.

So I'm safe to go there and experience these emotions.

That's it. That's exactly it.

So, then we move into processing.

Processing. So this is actually the majority of the phases. So thinking about trauma processing — that's phases three through eight.

So the rest of it.

The rest of it — but phase eight can also be integration, which we'll talk about next. So how this works practically: sometimes it sounds like a lot, but phases three through seven are really fast. Not meaning that you'll go through processing quickly, but they flow with each other pretty quickly.

You don't know when you're in one and kind of out of another, because you're in the experience, and your therapist is keeping track of what phase you're in as they deliver certain things or say certain things.

It's exactly it. So, how it would work is: the target — the thing you're wanting to process — could be in the past. So, oh, I got in a car accident. It could be something in the present: I have anxiety when I'm driving. Or it could be something in the future: I'm going to have to go on a trip and drive on the interstate with eight lanes. Right? All of this fits in the line of something dealing with a car. So what you would do is, we would pick a target to work on. Ideally, you start in the past, and you would activate it in phase three. So, pretty much, there's four parts of a memory: image, belief, emotion, sensation. So Montana would say, "Auriel, when you think about that car accident, what's the image that represents the worst part?" And I might say, "When I saw the car hit me." "Hey, what's the belief that comes up?" "I'm going to die." You know, emotions and sensations. And what that's doing is it's activating the target just enough to feel it. And then we go straight into phase four, which is the actual processing.

This is where the BLS comes in. And it's going to be pretty fast. And it's just desensitizing and reprocessing and breaking down the memory. And how it looks practically is, you're just going to let your brain go where it's going to go. You just watch it.

You just watch it.

It can feel weird —

I think, especially when we like control.

And you are in control, but you're just going to let your brain go where it's going to go. Similar to daydreaming or a dream. So the biggest thing is you're letting your brain go. Usually it might see it as the narrative — oh, the car hit me, now I'm upside down. Maybe it'll jump to other memories of, oh, I remember being five years old riding in the car and singing "Wheels on the Bus" with my mom. Right. Then it might jump to the first time you did driver's ed. Then it's going to all these associated channels.

Yeah.

And if your brain does jump to something very random, the therapist will probably say, go with that. If it stays on something like, did I put milk on it? They're going to redirect you back to the target. Right. Because then we're realizing the brain's going off somewhere else.

Yes. It has gone on a joyride somewhere else.

It is going on a joyride. And then in phase four, you're just bringing that intensity down, the charge down. So if I'm thinking about that car accident, the cool thing about EMDR is once I finish phase four, I'll think of it and it doesn't have the same charge anymore.

Yeah. It just won't feel as big.

Which is crazy. And most people will laugh. They're like, "What? This is weird."

Or they'll be like, "This isn't true. This isn't happening. You're kidding, right? This can't be real."

That's it.

Yeah.

And then after that, phase five is we're really installing the good stuff — that's what I call it. If you had the belief "I'm going to die," but you know, "I'm safe now," we're going to install that in your nervous system, where your nervous system really believes it, and it's anchoring into it as you're thinking about the trauma — or not the trauma, the target — and then move on. Do phase six: scanning your body, seeing if there's any residue. Anything left over?

Anything left over?

Which sometimes there is — tightness in the chest or the shoulders, or a little kind of headache in the back, or some energy in the legs; they're moving. And really, that phase six of the body scan — I sometimes say you can get an EMDR hangover, or a therapy hangover. Think about if you've cried a lot: you have a headache.

Yeah. That's not what we're looking for.

What really the biggest thing is: since there's four parts of a memory, sometimes that stomach pain that's connected to that memory is saying, "Hey, there's still something there."

Yeah.

And so you're more so just seeing, is this still there? As opposed to, I've been crying a lot and I'm tired and have a headache, you know?

Yeah. Right. You know, Auriel, I was talking to someone the other day, and they were telling me that TikTok really has latched on to this EMDR hangover narrative. And I don't know if it was in a bad way or in a good way, but people were talking about their experience after EMDR processing and just being kind of depleted, exhausted. What can we share with our listeners who might have been watching these TikToks that are leaving people with the sense of what they're going to feel like after their first EMDR — you know, that episode where you do processing? What advice do you have for them, or what insight do you have for them?

Everybody's different. So I almost would say, listen, some people may have more of a tendency towards a hangover than not. But it also depends on what target. For example, as somebody with chronic illness, I could just do a talk therapy session and I know I'm going to need a nap and I can't do anything the rest of the day. And I'm not even doing EMDR. So for someone like me, I may be more prone to the EMDR hangover. And an EMDR hangover for me just means I feel a little extra tired. Depending on the target — if it's more like sexual abuse, there could be some somatic things that you might experience. But I've actually had plenty of clients, they do EMDR and they're more energized afterwards, or they feel completely fine. And so I find it depends on the client, their natural capacity, and then also what target we're processing. So oftentimes what I will recommend for a client is: the first couple times we do EMDR, let's pick a day and a time of the day that you don't have to get back into work.

Right?

You can give yourself permission to rest if you need it. Sometimes, thinking of the EMDR hangover, our brain processes for the next 72 hours. So for some people, the next day they just feel the blues, or more sensitive, a little different or a little off, maybe.

A little off.

But that's not going to be every time you do EMDR.

You know, it kind of makes me think of — going back to the workout analogy. Sometimes when I work out, I'm freaking tired after that, and I'm sore the next couple days.

Yeah. Sometimes I'm not. And so it just kind of can give that type of thing. It's just more so preparing and giving space for however your body may respond. But that kind of goes — sorry, I know you're about to say something — that kind of goes into the phase one and phase two, where the clinician is also going to give you things on how to help you in that time, such as making sure you're eating, drinking water, sleeping.

Yeah. Doing things that are life-giving for you, spending time with someone who's life-giving for you, taking a bubble bath — all these types of different things. I think going back to that workout analogy can be helpful, because I think sometimes people go, "Well, I'm not sore. Did I work out my brain? Did I work out?"

You know, or, "I'm too sore. Did I overdo it?" And I think for trauma survivors, because you've experienced emotional pain, we can be scared of any pain. And I think of that going back to the workout analogy. My husband had to teach me: hey, this is a good pain.

Yeah — your muscles are tearing to regrow, and they're sore and it hurts. That doesn't mean you are experiencing nerve pain or injuring yourself here. And so there's this level where you start to also relearn your tolerance for what's good or not, right?

Redefine things for yourself. Your own relationship with your body starts to evolve into something a little bit different than what it was in the past.

That's it.

That's it.

And we can't measure — well, this person was super sore, so I'm probably going to be super sore. You might be, might not be.

You know. So —

I do love it when the aftermath of a processing episode is just that energy. And I feel like that's the one that doesn't get talked about a lot. People, I think, like to talk about the weight and the heavy one and the hangover, like we've been talking about. But there is very much an experience after processing where that person is leaving with just this weight lifted, and you can see it. They can see it. They name it. They're like, "Oh my gosh, I can't — this is amazing. I had this thought, or I had this memory in my brain, and after going through the motions, it just doesn't feel like it's there, and I feel much lighter, and this is amazing." And it's almost like they have a pep in their step when they leave the room that day. And it is so beautiful to see.

It is.

It's so, so rewarding for the person to have challenged themselves to go somewhere that was really scary and then to feel that degree of relief. I can imagine it feels really, really special.

Yes. I think my brain works in analogies, and I think this can be helpful, especially for trauma survivors. They're like, "But what does that mean?" With Trent training me, there are days I go and I am butt tired and I can't do as much. And guess what? I need a nap afterwards. But it was still okay. I still did something. I still was moving forward.

Yeah. There's some days I go in, I'm feeling really strong, and I leave the workout and I'm like, man, I could go for a walk now, or I just feel really good in my body.

And you're going to experience both.

Because we're working different muscles, we're working different things out.

Yes. Phase seven is simple. It's just simply ending a session, and either the target's complete or it's incomplete. And so it's just how the clinician's going to work with you. It's not uncommon sometimes for it to take a couple sessions to work through a target. And remember, a target could be in the past, present, or future. And so if it's incomplete, it's just moving everything to be contained and moving on to your next thing of the day, and then picking back up where you left off, which is phase eight. Phase eight always starts the next session. So whether the client finished the target or not, the clinician's going to ask some general questions. How have you been? Have you noticed anything different? Did you have any weird dreams, which can sometimes happen? Have you noticed a change in how you're relating to other people or how you see yourself? When you think about that target, what's it like? Is it distressing or not distressing?

And if it was a complete target — you made it through, it's all good — you might go to something else. You might go to the next thing. If it was incomplete, you'll pick back up where you left off, which is why phase eight is still part of processing. We'll talk about why phase eight is also the maintenance and integration in a minute. But phase seven is simply how you're ending a session, and phase eight is how you're starting the next session. You're picking back up where you left off, or you're going to something different.

Auriel, for clients who are worried about not finishing and having to continue the next session with the target — what is your explanation for them about an unfinished session?

Yeah. So, I think maybe how you could think of it is going back to how everybody's different. Some people will have some targets they process really fast. Sometimes it will take a while. And when I say a while, it's a few sessions. It's not months and months and months. And when we think of that, it's just there may be a lot in there. So it's a very dense memory network —

Bunch of branches.

Lots of stuff that we're just having to work through. And so part of what the clinician is going to have done in the beginning is you'll learn this thing called safe calm place and container, which helps you be able to compartmentalize in a healthy way where you left off, and move forward where it doesn't feel like it's just open.

Yeah. Exposed right there.

That's it. And you're going to be okay. I have had many clients with incomplete sessions or incomplete targets.

I've had it.

And you're able to carry on your day and your life. If anything, this is where I find some people may have a little bit more fatigue, but it's not going to be anything worse than what you've already been experiencing. And I think that's the biggest thing when you think about PTSD: your body is already experiencing heightened anxiety or depression or dissociation or trigger sensitivity or fatigue. And so the process of cleaning it out isn't going to be anything worse than what you're already going through. I mean, it can sometimes inflame it a little bit, but it doesn't mean you're going to be there forever. And it also means you can move towards a place of having a life where you don't live with that forever, you know.

Yeah. I also find that as people begin the processing — and let's say we have an unfinished target — the belief about themselves and their ability to work through it also evolves the more you process. So with unfinished targets — and I'm not saying this is true for everyone — a lot of the time what I witness is that there is a greater sense of control and agency over that memory.

Yes.

And the sensations in their body, since we have named where they're coming from and what they're associated with — if you don't finish it and you notice something come up between sessions, there is this new attention around that experience, and they're able to move that into their container to keep safe between sessions, and then come back and be able to talk about it, and not necessarily have felt the dysregulation they would have felt before starting the processing.

And this is the cool thing too. I have found — so EMDR is unique. You could do some intensives, with multiple hours of just doing processing. Most people, when they're using their insurance, are going to do a 50-minute session, and insurance does allow for two sessions a week. And some people go, well, can I do it every other week and do EMDR? Some of my chronic illness people, I said yes, because it gave them a chance to process it and maybe gave them a chance to come back, you know. But if you notice, wow, okay, it's right there and I just need to get it out, you can increase the frequency to maybe move through that target quicker. And so this is kind of where you get to work with your clinician — knowing yourself, knowing your capacity, knowing the target you're working on and the season of life you're in.

Yeah.

This is also a — can't help it — it's a good opportunity to talk about Loma Therapy, because we run all of these checks for you. So if you don't understand your insurance, or you don't know what is covered or not covered, we got you. We will make sure that your plan will reimburse two sessions a week, so that you know you're not left in the dark or with a surprise.

Yep, absolutely. So I want to move into just the integration, the last part.

Yeah.

So this is where phase eight also comes in. So if you have moved through — I've processed the car accident that happened in the past, I processed this present anxiety of driving, and I've processed having to go on the interstate — you can actually do a positive template of being able to orient: what is it like to be able to get in the car and feel safe and feel regulated with all potential triggers? It could be traffic. It could be, I'm noticing this person's not sober next to me. A fender bender.

Yes. Starting to rain.

All of this, where you can see yourself being able to handle it — truly feel it in your body — and using all your coping skills with the BLS. And that is something that really — it's almost like it solidifies everything that you've processed into your daily living. And what's huge about that is, oftentimes with trauma, we have such a strong way of interacting with the world through a survival mentality that once we process it, we're like, "So, how do I do this now?"

"How does this look different?"

Right? It makes me think of — I have a leg longer than the other. It's about 5/8 of an inch longer than the other. And I didn't find out till last year. And so whenever we finally figured it out and we got me into leveled shoes, my body had to go, okay, this is how we walk now. Because it had 32 years of overcompensating and undercompensating due to the leg length discrepancy. And so now, having the balance, I had to learn what it is like to interact and walk. It's the same thing when your body has been living in trauma. It's going to have ways of overcompensating, such as: I always say no. I'm very rigid. Right? Or maybe undercompensating: I'm a people pleaser. Right? So once you process that trauma and you're realizing, I don't have to do this anymore — kind of like, what does this look like to interact with the world? And that's where that phase eight also comes in with the positive template.

You know what an interesting conversation might be for us, Auriel, is how, when people go through trauma processing and start to feel all of this positive change as a result, their relationships might change, their friendships might change, people may be like, "You seem different," or they may be taken aback if someone says no, because maybe they haven't said no for a very, very long time — and how that's not uncommon.

It's not uncommon after people have experienced trauma processing and EMDR to make career changes.

Yeah.

To have relational changes, and to not fear that. It's an empowering thing where they go, "Oh my goodness, I didn't realize that I chose blank out of a survival response, but this actually doesn't fit within authentic me."

Yeah. Oh, I love this. I love this idea.

I know. I'll write it down.

Yes. Because that's such an interesting and neat and really hopeful — you know, I say that, but also scary — thing to be thinking about: how your life can change, and what decisions you might have made because you're operating from this survival place. But inspiring that your life could look different and you actually experience more joy, more hopefulness —

More connection.

Not just with yourself and the world around you, but with the people in your life.

Yes. Yes. You know, I'll share a little bit about that in my own personal life. If anybody's into the Enneagram — I'm an Enneagram 6, and the Enneagram 6 loves security and stability. And when I was in grad school, I tested as an Enneagram 3, which, if you know the Enneagram, then you're like, poor Auriel, she was unhealthy. Because — no, this is legit — you don't change your Enneagram number. You're always the same number. It's not like Myers-Briggs, where you can adapt. But signs that when you're one number — each number will look like another number if it's healthy, and it'll look like another number if it's unhealthy. It'll have certain traits.

Okay?

So this will make sense. Enneagram 3s are achievers. It's not uncommon, and would make sense, why an Enneagram 6, when they're not feeling safe, when they're feeling stressed, will look like an Enneagram 3, where they're overachieving to try and get stability and security. Yeah, it's super interesting, where when an Enneagram 6 is healthy, it'll look more like an Enneagram 9. It has a little bit more peace, is able to experience being more laid-back. So why am I sharing this with y'all? I know for me, one of my survival mechanisms is do, do — prepare, prepare, prepare, think of everything, and overfunction. And the more that I've healed in my life, I'm letting go of that, and saying no to a lot of things, and realizing, wow, I didn't realize how much this overfunctioning was causing more distress in my life, right? Old coping mechanisms at some point had a purpose.

It served something, but at some point it's no longer serving something. And so I think of that — even in my own healing journey, I am continuing to be a recovering overachiever, you know.

And that's so hard to catch, too, because it's disguised as something really beneficial —

Especially in our culture.

Totally. Productivity and staying on top of things and having your plate full — all of this is perceived as something just wonderful and great. And it actually meant you were overcompensating quite a bit for a lack of a felt sense of safety.

That's it.

Yeah, that's it.

Wow. So, how do we feel?

Good. I feel like this was a good one. I feel like this was not like our — our last one was friends.

Exactly. Okay. So, next episode we are talking about trauma. I'm excited for that.

Especially when people think about, well, do I have trauma? Is this trauma?

Yeah. I think this is going to be really normalizing and eye-opening.

Yeah. And empowering.

Yes. And if you have any questions, you're welcome to reach out. If you have any topics you want us to cover, let us know. If you are interested in EMDR therapy and you are in Texas, check out Loma Therapy.

Yes.

If you are in Louisiana, you can check out Lotus Counseling and Wellness. But then also, too, you can use Psychology Today or EMDRIA's website in trying to find an EMDR provider in your area.

I know.

But we hope that this is something that just encourages you in your healing journey.

I'm looking up the TikTok that we have right now. It's Dr. Montana_lomatherapy, and that's our TikTok handle, where we post videos, clips of our YouTube videos. And then you can follow us on Instagram, too.

Love it. And Lotus is not on social media. We got off of it, and I'm free.

That's wonderful.

You can find our website: lotuscounselingandwellness.com.

So, yes.

All right, y'all. See y'all next time.

Yes. Bye, you guys.

Bye.